The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. Ancion Marx This will be an on going Email: Info@hlebooks.com Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Thomas Jefferson. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. (copy right L.R. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. Due to the The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. %PDF-1.3 Thanks so much. Ancion Jacques & Cie Baron Emile Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . These Thanks again for the help! arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. To establish this rule, they constructed a proof house near the City of London. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. production. this book online and pay it through Paypal. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Misc. Clment Walter Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Marlin-Savage-Winchester Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Bernard Lambert Where did you find the Falla mark? "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over Search. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. We have provided you The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Coquilhat Aim Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Pictures would help! thanks for the help so far. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . listed in alphabetical order. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Bouquin Ad John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Bernimolin & Cap M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! "Cueruy" could be the maker. Search. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. Quite old. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. 1840-1860. Christophe Louis Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . Wish I could be more helpful! The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. Thank y'all again! Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Closset Louis A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. I know the bottom image. Bury Jules. weapon. Comblain - Dorther Hubert Many thanxPS:. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. Baltus - Wilmotte Counet - Genot is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). Closset Louis - Remy Hubert As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. Sorry! Ancion DD & Fils Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. The blue is rough but the action works. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques The Modern Shotgun. As I've said, I'm not an expert. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. How does it open? Berleur Guillaume Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. Lewis Lobdell Hepburn ran his own gunshop in Colton, a small village .Click for more info Seller: gbdeer Area Code: 315 $2,600.00 ATTRACTIVE WESLEY RICHARDS 6-GAUGE PERCUSSION SINGLE BARREL SHOTGUN GI#: 102214961 that we have found on this subject. Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. 1870-1898. Boden in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. the 20th century. Order this book online and pay it through Thanks Hause. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Counet Philippe Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Cachoir Or any info? Bernimolin Sorry I can't be more helpful. The book But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. - Galoppin It was mandatory post-1924. % Charlier Ch. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. 254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Any ideas as to date range? Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Chartier Testing the gun Members . CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. . U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . (most sales were in the 1930s). Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers Home | Login | Register. . The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. Brancquaert Louis Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008.